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Court4Fred
Advanced Member
1201 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 7:30:49 PM
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Michael,
Every city and town is required to educate all children through 12th grade, regardless of legal status. This is a 1982 federal law. The cities and towns aren't looking the other way - they are fulfilling their obligation. As long as a parent shows up with a gas bill, rent receipt, mortgage bill with their name and address on it - their children will receive a "free and appropriate education."
The lawsuit is predicated on the legal addresses of legal citizens. In short, states that allow illegal aliens to claim an in-state tuition benefit (when in fact, their legal address is outside of the country) discriminate against out-of-state students who also happen to be legal citizens of this country by making them pay the higher, out-of-state rates. I thought it was an ingenuous response.
As for our indigenous people, they would have a right to claim in-state tuition benefits because they are already dual citizens, of both the US and the sovereign nation of their tribes.
I do understand why you think the way you do. I just think its difficult for most people to accept rewarding illegal behavior. Why bother being a citizen at all if we're just going to give benefits away? Senator Barrios also wants voting rights for non-citizens in school committee elections at municipal level, believing that all people who have children in the school system deserve a voice. But, so begins the slippery slope. Where does it stop? Isn't the next logical step after that voting privileges for non-citizens in school committee elections ...the city council....then the mayor...then state elections? Why don't we just pack up the tents now and just give them the whole country?
The dollars for higher education are sadly finite, and this is about rewarding illegal behavior when people who are working so hard to provide for their children can't catch a break. If the state starts giving in-state benefits for non-citizens, then someone or something else will go without.
Your grandparents came here legally and so did mine. Let them come in legally - then claim the benefits of citizenship. That's all most of us are asking for. |
Edited by - Court4Fred on 03/07/2006 7:34:32 PM |
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bbpolitical
Forum Admin
265 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2006 : 9:40:04 PM
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That just isn't correct as far as Boston is concerned (for international students at least). I discovered that if legal international children walk into the Boston Public Schools with an I-20 (Student Visa) and try to register, the officials hand them or their stateside sponsors a bill for $17000. They are entitled to free education in THEIR own country, not here. They aren't considered truant, for example, if not in school if they are not legally residents of the US, since you have to be a US resident before you can be a state or city resident. That's they way it works for LEGAL students.
Based on this, I admit that I assumed illegal students are not entitled to anything because they aren't LEGAL residents, at least as far as I was told. Without legal government identification with a local address on it, are schools allowed to approve residency? I would think that a utility bill is supposed to be in addition to a driver's license, etc. There is something wrong with the law if public elementary and secondary education is free for "illegal" residents and but they are suddenly not residents when it comes public universities or community colleges. There is something inconsistent here....
So, in short, I see where the slippery slope you speak of gets its start. The 1982 law puts it into motion. I appreciate the education you have given me on the state of affairs politically.
I think if illegal immigrants are discriminating against out of state students, they are also wrongly sapping school resources from in state residents. Either way they aren't really residents here in cities and towns or states.
ANYWAY, my grandparents and your grandparents came here when immigration laws by and large didn't exist as a barrier to immigration. Try telling a Haitian college graduate who speaks four languages including fluent English, but dodging bullets in the streets of Port au Prince to come here legally. It isn't going to happen. Try telling an unemployed Mexican with only a strong back and two hands to outfox the corrupt immigration officials to put food on his family's table. I have been in other countries and seen the misery our government puts people through. I have seen how our foreign policy cripples so many countries and starves their citizens. But my biggest problem in this whole debate is, I think, if given a choice, 99% of all illegal immigrants would have come here legally. Many didn't want to leave their home but had no choice. Most tried the legal way first. My great grandparents showed up here in a boat with only the family Bible and were trusted. I think the whole Statue of Liberty promise is dead and gone now. May as well cut down the Statue of Liberty and ship her back to France.
The reasons people come here now are the same as they were 100 years ago.
Michael
quote:
Originally posted by Court4Fred
Michael,
Every city and town is required to educate all children through 12th grade, regardless of legal status. This is a 1982 federal law. The cities and towns aren't looking the other way - they are fulfilling their obligation. As long as a parent shows up with a gas bill, rent receipt, mortgage bill with their name and address on it - their children will receive a "free and appropriate education."
The lawsuit is predicated on the legal addresses of legal citizens. In short, states that allow illegal aliens to claim an in-state tuition benefit (when in fact, their legal address is outside of the country) discriminate against out-of-state students who also happen to be legal citizens of this country by making them pay the higher, out-of-state rates. I thought it was an ingenuous response.
As for our indigenous people, they would have a right to claim in-state tuition benefits because they are already dual citizens, of both the US and the sovereign nation of their tribes.
I do understand why you think the way you do. I just think its difficult for most people to accept rewarding illegal behavior. Why bother being a citizen at all if we're just going to give benefits away? Senator Barrios also wants voting rights for non-citizens in school committee elections at municipal level, believing that all people who have children in the school system deserve a voice. But, so begins the slippery slope. Where does it stop? Isn't the next logical step after that voting privileges for non-citizens in school committee elections ...the city council....then the mayor...then state elections? Why don't we just pack up the tents now and just give them the whole country?
The dollars for higher education are sadly finite, and this is about rewarding illegal behavior when people who are working so hard to provide for their children can't catch a break. If the state starts giving in-state benefits for non-citizens, then someone or something else will go without.
Your grandparents came here legally and so did mine. Let them come in legally - then claim the benefits of citizenship. That's all most of us are asking for.
I am an average resident of Everett who would like to see more communication about anything and everything to do with Everett |
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Court4Fred
Advanced Member
1201 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 1:12:48 PM
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Michael - whether Boston obeys the intent of the law or not, this is what I know to be true:
Plyer vs. Doe, 1982, the Supreme Court ruled that the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits states from denying a free public education to undocumented immigrant children regardless of their immigrant status. The court emphatically declared that school systems are not agents for enforcing immigration law, and determined that the burden that undocumented aliens may place on school districts is not an acceptable argument for excluding or denying educational service to any student. You must be logged in to see this link.
Additionally - given that resources ARE finite - what class or party to do you wish to take from? This is what it boils down to. Additionally, what expectation can an American have in terms of tuition assistance outside of this country? Realistically - would you expect tuition assistance if you just decided to move to even Canada? How about France? Think there's a special rate for Americans trying to escape poverty, from say a barrio in Los Angeles? How about from a tin-shack in the Appalachians? Not all school systems are created equally in the US, Michael. The education one gets in rural Louisiana is NOT the same as that in a suburban paradise outside of LA. These American kids aren't getting what they need to compete successfully...what about them?
You also mention the barriers to immigration which "force" people to choose illegal means. Every country has "barriers" of some sort and always have. You mention the trials of someone from Haiti; allow me to mention the Jews from Russia and other Soviet nations during the cold war. Yet, they filed their papers and get here legally.
Public policy can't be predicated on visceral responses. It has to be near-utilitarian, the "greatest good for the greatest number," particularly when dealing with severely limited resources. Tuition benefits for undocumented aliens may be a reasonable good thing to do, Michael, but in the competition for resources, they will lose mightily when we have American kids going begging for basic classroom needs at the primary level, never mind tuition aid for college. The "buy-in" for the plan is further hampered by the reward for illegal behavior.
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katmac
Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 1:16:33 PM
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Guys, you both have great legal and moral arguments. My position, being caught in this situation personally, isn't that I resent having to work hard for my son to go to a much lower caliber school than I would like (and his having to work for it is a benefit in many ways as well). My problem is that the idea that "we shouldn't punish the kids for the illegal action of the parents" argument doesn't wash when the parents likely did what they did SO their kids COULD benefit from their actions. I am in complete agreement about not leaving the immigrant population out in the cold once they get here. I also agree that if we don’t educate and provide skills to this segment of the population, they may remain forever a burden to the state. My issue, is the relaxed standards, and over the top compensation provided when so many kids, like ,mine, are just as in need in some cases. The irony is schools like Harvard and MIT and other elite institutions will bring foreign students over FREE and then they leave with the education and use it against us (economically or politically – isn’t a former Taliban and mouth piece for Osama attending Yale?); while people that were born and raised in this country are more likely to use the education here - to contribute to this society.
Also, my grandparents came to this country and could only get one of their 4 kids through college. Everyone else had to work right away. It’s only the 2nd and 3rd generation that will have an easier time of achieving this goal. Is there such a need to accelerate that timeline? Why not let these folks do what every other immigrant did, establish themselves, get a job with a union and work so the next generation gets what they can. We need to calm down in this country with the handouts. Besides we won’t have the money for it once we attack Iran, anyway.
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Court4Fred
Advanced Member
1201 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 8:19:58 PM
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| My grandparents also came to this country with nothing. It was the third generation that was actually able to attend a state college...on their own money. No handouts, no giveaways and no tuition breaks. It's the sense of entitlement that I don't understand. |
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H1ghCh4r1ty
Advanced Member
967 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 10:25:19 PM
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Too long winded...all of you.....
But, I think Court won this one.....
Sorry Michael, the cards, letters, and flowers are on the way...
;)
Emile Schoeffhausen |
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Court4Fred
Advanced Member
1201 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 1:31:25 PM
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| My apologies for the "wind" - but I can't resist sometimes. |
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H1ghCh4r1ty
Advanced Member
967 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 6:13:11 PM
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No problem, my friend......sometimes the wind can be a relief.
You should really find someone like the Pup to do your typing for you....
Emile Schoeffhausen |
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Court4Fred
Advanced Member
1201 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 11:13:59 AM
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| I wish I had such a talented pup! Emile - does the pup do your taxes for you as well? Now that would be something. |
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H1ghCh4r1ty
Advanced Member
967 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 1:44:17 PM
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Not yet, my friend,
but still, the Pup and his antics can be taxing at times.....
Emile Schoeffhausen |
Edited by - H1ghCh4r1ty on 03/10/2006 9:52:34 PM |
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Court4Fred
Advanced Member
1201 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 4:57:14 PM
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| And so it goes with all of our four-legged friends....and some of our two-legged friends, as well. |
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bbpolitical
Forum Admin
265 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 09:09:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Court4Fred
Not all school systems are created equally in the US, Michael. The education one gets in rural Louisiana is NOT the same as that in a suburban paradise outside of LA. These American kids aren't getting what they need to compete successfully...what about them?
You also mention the barriers to immigration which "force" people to choose illegal means. Every country has "barriers" of some sort and always have. You mention the trials of someone from Haiti; allow me to mention the Jews from Russia and other Soviet nations during the cold war. Yet, they filed their papers and get here legally.
I am fully aware of rural/urban disparities in education. This is why I am becoming an education advocate and outreach specialist. Very few Americans are joining the professional workforce in many areas, particularly in Math and Science, and I fully intend to work to correct this problem. The problem is pronounced of course in underserved areas. But it isn't illegal immigrants that are taking these jobs, it is better prepared professionals overseas who come here to universities and work legally at the request of employers. The problem is that kids in underserved don't have a chance, whether they are legal or not.
As far as coming here legally in the past, I don't doubt that people 50 years ago came here legally. But this is no comparison to the way it is now. NO ONE in Haiti, Russia, China, El Salvador, or even Canada can come here and get status the way the way people used to be able to. It is nearly impossible to get American papers today withouth having large sums of money, bribing a corrupt official, or marrying an American citizen.
The immigration system is NOT FAIR. Why anyone can look at the kangaroo court that is the USCIS and the overt discrimination in American embassies and tell me they support them is beyond me. Over 100,000 people marched on the Federal building in Chicago on Friday while I was there because of legislative attempts to further criminalize illegal immigrants. This problem won't go away by criminalizing hard workers. Calling them Criminals reflects an ignorant attitude.
The whole point is that I don't argue with the legality of illegal immigrants. I agree that legally we can't give them benefits that should go to American kids first. However, we can't blame illegal immigrants for coming here illegally or overstaying their visas (Many illegals in Boston overstayed their visa rather than came here illegally) for the reasons I have been talking about all along. The people we should be angry at are the ones in the government who perpetuate the hate, discrimination, and unnecessary bueracracy against people who want to come here legally.
Until we fix this, I think we should put a big curtain over the statue of liberty and put a sign on it that says (Motto Temporarily Not Applicable).
I am an average resident of Everett who would like to see more communication about anything and everything to do with Everett |
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bbpolitical
Forum Admin
265 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 09:44:29 AM
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Anyway, in issues such as these, it tends to be difficult to change hearts and minds because they they affect all of us so personally. It is very hard to think of fairness for someone else when it seems to mean that you will end up having to give up something you have for them to get their rightful share. However, the real problem lies with very few people at the top who are holding back what rightfully belongs to all of us. It is in their best interest for us to lash out against the hapless illegal immigrant population. It diverts our attention from the real problems that impact us all.
So, while I respect and agree with the legal opinion and personal experience of others on this bulletin board, I will not alter my global democratic views. I will work in the education advocacy sector as a profession and plan to work to correct the inequities that drive the underserved further and further away from a chance at success.
For now, therfore, I surrender to the political and legal viewpoints of Court and Katmac. I really would like to know Jarrett Barrios's position here. It does seem like an uphill battle for him.
Michael
I am an average resident of Everett who would like to see more communication about anything and everything to do with Everett |
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Court4Fred
Advanced Member
1201 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 10:46:44 AM
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| Michael - if you're going into special education advocacy, you can start right here in your own backyard. Fred Foresteire used a "slush fund" created with special education allocated funds (hundreds of thousands of dollars) through a sped vendor and spent it on advertising and football crap. You're going to be a very busy man. |
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bbpolitical
Forum Admin
265 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 3:11:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Court4Fred
Michael - if you're going into special education advocacy, you can start right here in your own backyard. Fred Foresteire used a "slush fund" created with special education allocated funds (hundreds of thousands of dollars) through a sped vendor and spent it on advertising and football crap. You're going to be a very busy man.
I know, I've been amazed at what is going on with that. Talk about corruption! However, I am actually more interested in doing math and science for underserved students, rather than special education. That's what I was trained to do anyhow. I would have to go back to school for quite a while for the Special Ed.
I did pass my exams to be a certified teacher in Massachusetts and am considering working in Everett. If I do get hired here, I hope I don't end up owing anybody any favors and having that influence my education allocations. (I plan on writing grants for funds from the federal government to support outreach and after school programs). I haven't put in my resume here yet, though. I would also like to coach football and I doubt I would even get considered as an assistant here in Everett considering the wall I have been up against in Everett athletics thus far.
Michael
I am an average resident of Everett who would like to see more communication about anything and everything to do with Everett |
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MIDDLESEX D.A.
